Ep 76: Raising Change Agents with Iris Chen @Untigering

This special episode is what happens when a mom who’s practicing liberation in her family and myself get together, get real, and get nerdy about social justice parenting. And this mom is none other than Iris Chen, the founder of the Untigering movement, author of the book Untigering: Peaceful Parenting for the Deconstructing Tiger Parent, and an advocate for peaceful parenting, unschooling, and anti-oppression. In this episode, Iris and I invite you to gather around and be…as we explore what it means to make parenting political, especially when we want to protect our children from the world; what it means to be a change agent; how to practice liberation in hard moments like screentime; and so much more.

And a little housekeeping, parts of my audio were a little wonky during this interview on Instagram Live. My sincere apologies in advance. If you’d like to read the transcript along, that might help a lot. If that sounds generative to you, let’s get started with my response to Iris’s question: what does it mean to make parenting political?

[OPENING]

Sawadee ka, and welcome to the Come Back to Care podcast. A place where we’re re-imagining parenting to be deeply decolonized and intentionally intergenerational. If you’ve been looking for ways to practice social justice in your daily parenting and nurture your child’s development while re-parenting your inner child, I’m so glad you’re here. I am your host, Nat Nadha Vikitsreth, a decolonized and licensed clinical psychotherapist, somatic abolitionist, and founder of Come Back to Care. A dot connector, norm agitator and lover of liberation. In this podcast, we turn down the volume of oppressive social norms and outdated family patterns so that we can hear our inner voice and raise our children by our own values too. We come back home to our body and the goodness within. We come back to our lineages and communities. And we come back to care… together. So come curious and come as you are.

[EPISODE]

What it means to make parenting political

Nat (00:02)

I mean that, you know, most of us have this parental instinct. This world is on fire to immediately protect our children and to keep them safe. Right? Is that landing for you?

Iris (00:20)

Yes.

Nat (00:22)

And a lot of times we don't really interrogate those parental instincts and distinguishing them from survival instinct that a lot of us have to over learn trying to survive under white colonial capitalist patriarchy. And under these current times of fascism, when we want to a lot of times we try to do that through controlling children, pushing them to be more productive or shaping them to be perfect. So by making parenting political, you name the game that we are surviving under and align with our values, mostly of liberation and social justice, and choose that alignment within our own bandwidth and capacity and do that most of the time.

Iris (01:26)

That's beautiful. think I love what you said about naming the game because I think there's like so many books out there about parenting and so much content out there about parenting that is just about the parent-child dyad and about that relationship. And you are really talking about like the context in which we are parenting and how that affects us so much and affects our parenting so much, whether or not we really like it.

Nat (01:56)

Yes, yes. And I love those tips and strategies, Iris. They come in handy when we are ready. And I think before we get to the strategies to utilize these strategies effectively, I think understanding the context, the social political context can be really powerful. And I have to say, your book made me feel that it's so possible for me to name the context and the game too. You invite us so lovingly in Untigering for us to interrogate the forces of oppression.

Iris (02:36)

Yeah, so not just like our current social political moment, but just like our cultural, like the embedded traumas that we now call culture. That I also learned from Resmaa Menakem and ⁓ yeah, like all the politics of the past. What we call parenthood today, whether it's like Asian parenting, tiger parenting, Chinese parenting or whatever.

Nat (03:04)

Yes, ⁓

The Motivation Behind 'Raising Change Agents'

Iris (03:07)

Yeah. Beautiful. So what was it that made you want to write this book?

Nat (03:16)

⁓ It's a love letter to caregivers and parents. I think that's in a nutshell because I often see Iris, the caregivers and parents that I have the honor of working with, they would go out in the community and advocate for social justice, advocate for abolition, for defunding the police. They fall apart when their children are being children, when their children are asking for connection, when their children are exerting independence by saying no or just not listening or following directions. And then they blame and shame themselves for not being the parent that they know they can be. And I just want to write this book to say that, hey, you’re doing so much more than you give yourself credit for, I see your intention that you're practicing in the community, out in the streets. What would it be like to bring those intentions back home? What would it be like to see our children as little change agents and treat them accordingly?

Iris (04:46)

Yeah, so it's sort of naming those of us who want to do good in the world, who want to affect change and live in our social justice values. And yet, when it comes to our relationships, particularly with our children, how challenging that is, how we still give into these dominant power dynamics. And yeah, to name that and to work through that and you write with so much compassion and humor. So yeah, I really, I really love that. ⁓ And so yeah, like what would you say are some, you talk in your book about like a social justice parenting playbook. So what would you say is a way that parents can do that? Yeah, like, give us a rundown of what that is.

The Social Justice Parenting Playbook

Nat (05:46)

Okay, the rundown starts with one decision. In the heat of the moment, when your child is probably kicking or you're getting really irritated. And before you repeat the reactivity that your body is so familiar with, whether it's yelling or controlling or shutting down or throwing boundaries out the window to people please because it would be quote unquote, easier that one decision is to take a beat, whatever that looks like and ask, what do I want my child to know in this moment to be survival smart or to be liberation smart? And whatever your response is in that moment, the parenting decision that comes next will be informed by that.

So for example, if your child is kicking and screaming and you're at Walmart, it's Friday at 7 p.m. and you're thinking, my goodness, I want them to understand in this moment how to be survival smart. You know, how to really feel their feelings but in public and in the brown body that they're in, it might not be the safest always to express their feelings fully. So I want them to be survival smart and understand that. So how do I do that without policing them? But instead, maybe collaborate with them, participate with them, or be a scaffold for their feelings. And in that moment, you might decide, OK, I'm gonna teach them how to be survival smart about how to express their feelings. And it might mean that I go in and like, hey, it looks like your body needs a little help. And I'm here, let's go to the car and come back.

So basically we start with one decision, Iris, asking, what do I want my child to know right now? How do we survive a smart or how to be liberation smart? And instead of controlling our children, we have three options in the playbook. We have collaborate, which is doing things together. We have participate, which is inviting them to make decisions with us. And we have lastly scaffold where, okay, I'm gonna hang back and be their coach and give them an opportunity to do things by themselves with our support, I need drops at a time. And how you implement these three options is entirely up to you in that situation and your child's development. That's the rundown.

Iris (08:51)

Yeah, that's amazing. Can you name those again? The strategy was collaborate. What was the second one again?

Nat (08:57)

Participate and scaffold and I want these to be three alternatives to our usual go-to habits. The habits that include control, where we just want to control our children into obedience to protect them. Or we want to push our children to perform or be productive and perform whatever social identities they identify with to be safe. Again, to protect them. Lastly, to really shape them into perfection because perfection is bulletproof in every sense of the word, and again, to protect them.

So we honor our intention to protect our children, but we're not going to do it by policing them through control, push, or shade. So we have three concrete alternatives to play with. ⁓

Iris (10:04)

Thank you. Yeah, thank you for naming like the go-to strategies that we often have when we are in that survival, when we do have those survival instincts. So I love like what you were talking about, just like taking the pause, slowing down, taking that one beat, right? The one thing you don't have to have it all figured out, but just slowing down and asking ourselves question, that question that you posed is like, what do I want my child to know in this moment? And sometimes like in the parenting world, ⁓ it is sort of like, we can go to the extreme where it's just like, well, my child should be able to express themselves fully in every context. But that that actually isn't reality. And that's not always right for to do. And so I think what you're saying is so important in terms of ⁓ recognizing, again, the context in which we are living, especially if you're a percent of the global majority or another ⁓ marginalized identity, and to know it's perfectly okay to want to just simply survive in that moment, but how to do it, right? So you're talking about ⁓ the how of wanting to give them the skills of how to survive and thrive, but even in those moments of survival, not to do it in a policing way, in a power over way.

Nat (11:32)

Yes, I think you summarized that so perfectly, Iris. And I think when I work with families with little ones with special needs or disabilities, examples that I often hear is at birthday parties. Parents are so protective of their children, wanting their children to have friends and have thriving social lives, right? And at birthday parties, parents almost want their kids to perform. To make friends and to keep friends, which is important. And I think when we ask ourselves, if I want them to be survival smart and make friends and have communities or chosen families down the line, of course I want them to exercise some social skills. But how do I do that without pushing them to like...Honey, please. I love you. Go make friends smile. Apologize. Share your toys right? before our little one is ready. But how do we do it in a way that maybe is using another option like participate? Okay, honey, we're going to go to your friends are going to be there. Can we make a game plan of, you know, your body's too overwhelmed? How might you like? Turn around and signal to me and I'll come in and be there for your support. Give me a signal and I’ll come check in with you. How would that look for you? What support would be nourishing for you at the party? Yeah, so we have, yeah, yeah.

Iris (13:18)

Yeah, that's just so much more compassionate and meeting the child where they're at instead of that performative piece, right? Where it just reminds me of a time when I brought my kid to like a community event, it was supposed to be fun, he was supposed to engage in all these things. And then the whole time he was just clinging to me. And I was just like, I brought you here to like socialize and to be, to engage in all these fun things and he was not having it. And so again, even though it's like we want to do these things for our children's good. And yet in so many ways it's like projecting our own ideas onto them and wanting them to behave or perform in certain ways that that like make us feel good or that everything is good for them when when you said they aren't ready for it.

Nat (14:20)

That's right. And I want parents and caregivers to not feel like they're on autopilot or feel ashamed of whatever they feel like, okay, I have to do it. But if they just reclaim that, I'm doing it because I want them to be survival smart or you know what? I really want them to be liberation smart and own that decision and make your next steps accordingly. I think a lot of times when we're stressed, try to scramble and find that parenting strategies or scripts that are not aligned with our values to begin with or with our children's development to begin with.

Soothing balm for when we mess up

Iris (15:09)

Yeah, so what would you say to a parent who knows what their values are, wants to, like, doesn't want to police their child, really wants to, you know, collaborate and participate and scaffold and do those things. But in the moment, we're exhausted, we're triggered, like, yeah, and the default is to yell or just to like, grab them and go or Yeah, like what do you say to parents who, yeah, end up doing that sometimes?

Nat (15:43)

Right. It's such an over-learned strategy that we all learn to survive, be perfect, to be productive, to be perfect. These are the things we had to over-learn. But if it's a skill we had to over-learn, that means it can take a lot of practice for us to unlearn that and pick different alternatives that are more aligned. So it takes practice. Definitely. And it starts with one decision in that moment. What do I want my child to know: how to be survival or how to be liberation smart? And when we miss that window in that moment, we can try again.

Iris (16:49)

I love that because I think it's just like maybe we feel like we have to have it all figured out or once we commit to a certain way of parenting we have to do it perfectly is again like that really ⁓ perfectionistic way of seeing it where I just love what you said it's just like it's just about like that one moment at that time and if you mess up you do the repair and you choose the next moment to step into that. And so it's less overwhelming in some ways. It's just like, what is this about right now in this moment? And I don't have to figure out the rest of my parenting.

Nat (17:29)

Exactly. Yes, actually, Iris, you remind me of chapter four. There's a whole chapter around, am I on the right track? Which gives us concrete wisdom from disability justice movements, from Harriet Tubman, around what can we use instead of perfectionism as a benchmark for our progress or practice. And actually one of them is regression. Like if we slip up or go back to the over-learned survival strategy in our parenting, like it is to be expected. And that means we go back to practicing liberation again. And if you mess up and you go back to practice, that, hat means you're in the ring. That means you're in the practice. That means you are on the right track.

Iris (18:35)

I love that so much. To build in regression as an expectation of this practice instead of perfection. I love that. And it sort of reminds me of my book as well and the word untigering and how I really wanted to just ongoing growth and process and direction and practice that we're moving into. Because like, we're never going to do it perfectly. Right? Yeah. And how to be in the practice of it and to like, offer ourselves so much compassion when we mess up and as we all will.

Nat (19:17)

We all will. and Mo, I see your comment too. I'm learning a lot right now. Thank you for being here. Yes. We are rehearsing a liberatory future with our children right now. There's no blueprint, right?

Iris (19:26)

Yeah. we're building it as we go. so, yeah, I think another thing that you had said earlier was just over learning. I've never heard that term used in that way before. But just like even the things that we think are innate or are default strategies like yelling or control or whatever, those are also learned. They are learned through trauma in our lives, through society, through school, through all of those things. And so I think once we understand that those are things that we learned in order to survive, in order to find belonging and all those things, then I think that's really empowering because that means we can also unlearn them. We can learn new ways. This isn't the just our innate-ness. that we just want to control children. It is something that has been learned and we can unlearn it.

Overlearning and Unlearning Parenting Strategies

Nat (20:43)

That's right. Yeah, we talked about what's over learned and what's under learned. Like if all our lives we've over learned how to be productive, we're under learning how to rest, how to listen to our voice, how to ask for help and receive help. And I think when we have little ones in our care, it's such a powerful portal for us to let go of what's not adaptive anymore. What's over-learned and practice what's under-learned with our children. ⁓

Iris (21:22)

Yeah. Yeah. I think even that is like so such a compassionate way of thinking about our survival strategies. It's just like they are sort of going over time. we've overemphasized them in some ways and we've under emphasized other things. And so it's not like these things never have a place or like were not useful to us at all. They helped us survive when we were our little selves and they're just over learned like you said and there's other aspects that we push to the side or we ignored or under learned because they weren't valued by society and now we have to sort of like bring it more into integration and stop just new ways.

Nat (22:17)

Yeah, because what's over-learned is overused. Right? And when our fear, our worries about our children's future, rightly so if you look at the news at all, right? When those fears and worries hijack our parenting intentions, parenting looks like survival boot camp 100 % of the time, right? And we only equip our children with survival smart skills and liberation smart skills are missing. And for our change agents to survive and thrive, they need both sets of skills: to be survival smart and liberation smart. So when we understand that, okay, I'm like overusing survival strategy right now, let's find a balance to equip our change agents with liberation smart skills too. And we can have that balance.

Iris (23:18)

Yeah, yeah, that's so helpful to not see it again as like a complete binary, but that both are needed. know, the survival, survival smarts, like you said, and in this world we need survival smarts. Yeah, like maybe the bears not come in after us, but you know. the ice ages are or something, you know, and so you have to ⁓ not just sort of idealize a world in which we can show up in a certain way all the time. We really need to understand. Yeah.

Nat (24:06)

⁓ definitely. I always have this fantasy of the systemic oppression being dismantled tomorrow. ⁓ It's not going to be right. And I think in the meantime, our children still need to understand survival smart skills. But how do we do so in a way that we're not policing them to protect them from police brutality or the bears, whichever costume that they're dressed up as.

Screentime: Power-With & Power-Over

Iris (24:38)

Yeah, so I'd love to talk a little bit more about that. Just a few days ago, I did a screen time thing talking about power with tools with screen times. And I feel like for many parents, screens are the bear. The algorithm is the bear. you know, tech companies are the bear and ⁓ rightly so in many ways. And so, yeah, what would you, I was really trying to encourage parents to move away from the policing, the control and yet when screens and like, yeah, being so scary and you wanna protect your child, what would you say are some survival smarts and liberation smarts in that context?

Nat (25:30)

Yes. Okay, I work primarily with the population who are zero to five.

Iris (25:39)

Okay, really young, right?

Nat (25:41)

really young, but this concept applies lifespan, right, Iris, where we remember that when there is a power struggle between ourselves and our children, and then we exert control by oftentimes, shutting it down or taking it away and for screen time, it might look like no screen time forever.

Power struggle is often the result, Like our children, regardless of age, they would find their way to experiment, I would say, with the things that we say no to. So to collaborate with them and participate in a decision would often oftentimes look like, okay, how do we make our safety plan together? How do we use screen time in a way that honors your curiosity and at the same time, my comfort too, because I want to protect you and keep you safe.

Like how do we become screen time smart together and make that decision together? I don't know how much of that aligns with what you shared with the audience. can you share? I want to learn too.

Iris (27:04)

No, absolutely. one of, I gave like five C's and one of them was collaborate. And so.

I think even for young children, really inviting them to participate in a decision where you're giving information, you're informing them of the dangers. Like there are real dangers and as parents we do have real fears and not to just ignore those or suppress them and just like, la la la, everything is fine. But really to invite a child into the process and children are actually so wise and when they feel like they have agency and a voice they're like, oh yeah, I don't want the bad man to control what I think, you know? Yeah, and they, yeah, they wanna feel safe too. That's And when they do it in a collaborative, connection-based way that they do trust you for the most part.

Nat (28:11)

They do. Yes, they do. I love the 5C so much. And you're right. It is about the process of engaging them in decision making together. by doing so, you're sharing power with them. That's practically what it is. And when you share power with them, you're communicating with them that I see your agency and I trust you. And let's make that decision together. There's a chapter in the book where I interview a family about screen time, actually. And I went through the process of making decision together. Did they, quote unquote, succeed at getting their kids to, you know, follow their directions from the get go? Absolutely not. But it's to your point that it's them understanding that, I can let go of my control of the children and communicate that in the process. Like that for them is resistance.

The Balance of Protection and Preparation in Parenting

Iris (29:23)

Yeah, I think one thing I really wanted to challenge, you know, the parents that I work with is about understanding what control is. Control is a really a fear based strategy that ⁓ that wants to prevent harm or any negative effects. I think it is sort of in some ways delusional when we control our children, control in such a way that we think that it's actually protecting our children from harm, because first of all, it doesn't work and we are not in control in reality. being human in the world doesn't mean that we never experience unpleasant negative things. It's it's impossibility to protect our children from that. It doesn’t mean we’re negligent of course, but I think there is a way in which we feel like if we do all the right things and, you know, protect our children in a certain way, like no bad things will happen.

Nat (30:36)

Yes, yes, yes, I feel that so deeply Iris, right? I'm still very Asian, there’s no free ranging our children here, right? But there's a difference between protecting our children from the world and preparing them for the world.

Iris (30:56)

Say that again. I want to think about that again.

Nat (31:00)

Okay, protecting our children from the world versus preparing them for the world. And the fear driven decision of control is protecting them from the world, which is doing them a disservice because then we're not equipping them with the skills to navigate these decisions when we're not there with them, when they're at school, birthday parties, events that were not there. Preparing them for the world is having that conversation of, you know what, for me, I think screen time willy-nilly is not safe. There are scammers, there are sources of disinformation and misinformation, right? But we can make decisions together of how do we engage with screen time? Because, you know, other activists are using it for good, for sharing information, for sharing mutual aid. Like, so, you know, how do we use it? For liberation. So that would be preparing them for the world.

Iris (32:15)

Yeah, I love that. ⁓ Because I think there's another way in which like screens are like the big bad guy. And so that's right. want to protect your child from but then you're not actually preparing them to be able to engage with it and use it in in liberatory ways like you mentioned.

Nat (32:37)

That's right, because I think it would be much juicier and more generative than, OK, we're not going to do screen time forever and ever. If we were to, OK, my love. I scroll and I watch cute squirrel videos and cat videos on Instagram, too, or TikTok. But I know that my brain is starting rotting ten minutes into scrolling, so do want to body double and set a timer, 10 minutes, and we're just gonna have fun within the limits, the safety limits that we set? And when the timer goes off, let's go do something. Take a walk, read a book, feed a cat. I don't know. Like, wouldn't that be more preparing our kids for the world and modeling that?

Nat (33:33)

I don't know the word, but yeah. Yeah.

Iris (33:37)

And that's like what you were describing in terms of like participating with them, where it's just not like you give them a screen and they're off doing their own thing, but you're like engaging with them. You're talking about your own experience with it. was just like, oh, I love this too, but after a while my brain just like turns off. It goes to mush. Right. Right. And so it's not something that you're doing to them in terms of like, okay, screens off now or whatever. It's something that you are doing with them and inviting them into it. So it's like, okay, let's take a body break. Let's go out and, or let's take a snack or whatever.

Nat (34:12)

Exactly. And I am not coming up with these strategies on my own, Like I've learned so much from parents in our community. When we practice unlearning policing, it requires a lot of creativity. For us to practice it in small ways with our children. And one parent shared with me, like, you know what, when I need a break, I lock myself in the bathroom and I would, you know, take care of my biological needs and I just scroll and I'm like, okay, but what if you do it with your kid and scroll but set a time limit and then take a break together? So you model that with your children and do it together.

Iris (35:02)

Yeah. So it's not like even though I've said things like, we don't do screen time limits or whatever like that. But it's not it's not whether in reality it's not whether or not you have limits or time constraints. It's about the agency. It's about not having it be a top down power over decision that the parent needs to police and enforce. But it can be something that you decide together. For example, like my family, don't do phones at the dinner table. And it's not like, it's not that I've decided that it's like we as a family have decided that because connection is important and our family is important. And so it's, it's, it's not about whether or not there's like, Life has limits and there's boundaries and everything and those in themselves are not bad, but it's how we do it with our children and not over-imposing it onto our children.

Nat (36:11)

Absolutely. And I think what our children understand that it's not just about taking what they love away, but what they gain instead. When there's no screen, then we get family time, then we get to have a conversation, then we get to just laugh about jokes together or reminisce like fun memories. I think it's, yeah finding that balance that works for you and your family.

Iris (36:43)

Yeah, I love that. Instead of creating a scarcity mindset of like a restriction mindset regarding screens, like, ooh, what do we get to do now? Yeah, how can we engage or what else can we focus on? Yeah, like a yes mentality instead of.

Nat (37:08)

Absolutely, absolutely. And it might take mealtime or screen time 30 minutes longer because you have to make that decision with your children, right? And share that power. So there's of course that inconvenience there. But I think by doing that, when it makes sense for you and your family, we get to model what liberation could look like. We get to model what it feels like to make decisions. And our children get to bring that when they grow up to their mutual aid networks, to their soup kitchen, to whatever organizing bodies that they are a part of. They already know in their bones how not to exert control over others. Right? Because you've been respecting their autonomy and agency so much. Right? It's rehearsing the future so our children can become change agents and go practice it with their chosen families down the line.

Iris (38:17)

Yeah, that's beautiful. I'm seeing that in my own family life, which is really just amazing. When you parent children with respect, with liberation, with ⁓ honor and dignity, when they're in spaces that are not like that, It's not normal to them. It's not. They're like, why are things being done this way? Or they're willing to push back and they're willing to say this isn't right, this doesn't feel good.

Nat (39:04)

Yeah, and we focus so much on like the hard work of being intentional. Right. Of course, it's hard. Of course, it's going to require more efforts and more strategies. But when we think about when your children grow up and be that person in the room who's like, wait, can we pause? This does not feel right. Right? Or, not everyone who needs to be here at the table is here. Right? Can we can we pause and we bring in more people? Like, they're the person who stopped the status quo and try to shift it. I think that's worth the effort.

Iris (39:54)

Yeah, and I love what you said about, like, I think books like yours, there's so many parenting books out there where it's just like, how can I make parenting easier? How can I make, you know, how can I make my child be more obedient or, you know, deal with a particular issue with my child and help me fix it? And I think what you've named is that this is hard work. This is not convenient. This is not convenient. It's not easy. Like there's so much critique of this type of parenting where they accuse us of being like leaning into permissiveness or letting your child get away with everything. ⁓ I just want to name that this is so much harder than controlling authoritarian parenting because so much of the work is about ourselves, about like our inner work that we have to do, and the creativity, like because the default in the world is to just control and command and coerce and the immediacy of getting a result. And this is like, you need to think the long game. You need to like think, okay, 10 years in the future is my young adult and my teenager, you know, how are they gonna up? Yeah, naming that, like, this is not easy stuff.

Nat (41:26)

Yes. You're so right. Because in trying to share this book, people really want something easy. And I think the easiest I can get is that we start with one decision at a time. But it's hard, and it's hard, right? But it's so worth it.

What Change Agents Mean

Iris (41:50)

Yeah, yeah. So I love the title of your book and you've also used that term many times, raising change agents. What do you think, yeah, what do you think that means for you? is that too big of a question?

Nat (42:07)

Ugh. Not at all. I just feel this gratitude and I promise I'm not stalling. I feel this gratitude that I get to speak with you and so many people who are watching now or later. ⁓ There's so many of us doing this work. I'm just feeling so grateful and you understand the book and the practice and I'm really grateful. The title of the book comes from the invitation for us that what if we treated our children as change agents instead of children? And I think you, identify this too Iris, can I share? In your chapter four, rethinking a child's nature, rethink that they're not someone who's sinful, innocent, empty, extensions or inferior.

But what if we rethink them as change agents and treat them as such? Because I think in our culture, we still believe that children are going to become quote unquote good only when we shape them and mold them and teach them and send them to Kumon or something. Right?

But if they treat them as change agents who have their agency, who have something to teach us to, who are liberation embodied, how would that change the way that we build connection with them? ⁓

Iris (43:57)

That is really powerful to just yeah, like our perspective on our children to see them as change agents and like even what you said to learn from them to. I think, yeah, the approach to children so often is like, they're this empty vessel that we have to shape. That's one of the policing things that you're talking about. The shape and mold and control and push. And ⁓ what if they had their own essence already and they are here in the world to manifest or express that power within them. think that's like a really beautiful image to start viewing our children as.

Nat (44:51)

Exactly. And I think the term change agent also referred to us caregivers. Because I really want us to practice liberation in small ways at home with our children. And then build our own skills to to be disobedient and disruptive to the status quo and bring all of these skills to our community organizing with clarity and confidence because we've been practicing it at home. So we too are change agents.

Iris (45:31)

Absolutely, like this is intergenerational work that we're doing. It's not just It's not just for our children. I really talk a lot about also reparenting ourselves and So like seeing seeing ourselves as change agents. So what does that mean? I love I love what you were talking about like disrupting being disobedient those are like all really negative ⁓ terms, especially when you're thinking of like in the context of being a child, if you're disruptive, this is like a lot of shame and all of that. But reclaiming that and seeing that as like, against these systems that are really against us and not for our good, and how empowering and beautiful it is to be disruptors and disobedient.

Nat (46:34)

Absolutely, absolutely. Because I want us to keep practicing liberation so that hopefully when our children grow up, they will never have to take any diversity, equity, inclusion webinars ever again. Because they know in their bones what it feels like to respect themselves so much, that they respect others in their community who live differently from them, who love differently, who learn differently, who look differently from them. ⁓

Iris (47:07)

Yeah. I just wanted to share a story. didn't get my child's permission, but hopefully it'll be okay. Because yeah, like I think he hangs out with a bunch of his friends who are all ⁓ guys and there's this way that they like sort of joke with one another and cut each other down a little bit, you know? He brought it up with a group like saying like when somebody shared that they liked something and everybody else laughed and made a joke about it even though it wasn't about him he was like i didn't think that was cool and and for everybody else it's just like this is just like normal way guys teenage guys talk to each other but i think for my for my friend he was just like that's not normal or that's not the way that like he is used to communicating with people. So I think to able to name when certain dynamics are so normalized that it's just the way it is or it's not a big deal, but when you aren't under those systems of oppression or then it doesn't feel right.

Nat (48:20)

That's right. ⁓ Iris, and we know for our teenagers and adolescents how powerful peer pressure is. And I hope you give yourself so much credit for building that foundation of trust. Right.

Iris (48:50)

Yeah, yeah, I'm really grateful because I think there's a lot of things that are happening out in the world that I don't see within the context of my family. Like, ⁓ know, things are good. But in terms of how they show up in the world and the different lens that they bring to the community around them, it's like, wow. Yeah, it is very encouraging. And so just like...For parents who are doing this work, know, it's totally worth it. It's hard, but it's worth it. yeah, and seeing the fruit of what has been sown into our kids' lives is really beautiful.

Nat (49:35)

Right. And you're not doing it alone, right? We're here for support. We're here in the village too, practicing as well. Yeah. ⁓

[CLOSING]

My dear co-conspirator, I hope my conversation with Iris has filled your cup and mobilized you into practicing social justice in everyday parenting. This heart work may seem big but it starts with one decision: what do I want my child to know right now: how to be survival smart or how to be liberation smart?

Raising Change Agents: Practicing Social Justice in Everyday Parenting is available now everywhere you buy books. If finance is tight, this podcast is a free resource for you to DIY your social justice parenting practice. Please choose your own adventure. I cannot thank you enough for being here and being you.

As always, in solidarity and sass. Until next time, please take care.